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[Wooster]

I see the US healthcare debate is raging again and those with a vested interest are fighting back with this kind of lunacy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c-JEx-Kfvc  
The worrying thing is they appear to be serious.
Implying that the NHS was somehow responsible for the actions of a few cranks (while looping the video of a burning Jeep) is frankly laughable. 

Our system isn't perfect, but it's fairer and works better than the current US system.
Currently the USA spend more than twice as much per capita (for those that can afford it) than the UK does, and yet life expectancy is still lower?*

There's also this question about bureaucracy and 'death panels' ( ).
I don't think the average user of the NHS sees much in the way of it, although there is an opinion that the management side is a bit top heavy.

From a practical point of view, in the UK you can still walk into any hospital with an A&E department, give your details (if you are able) and receive treatment.


Still, I don't think any country in the world with a reasonable healthcare system likes having it tinkered with.



*Australia and Canada are doing a really good job of it btw.
http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/archive/2719/27194101.jpg

[Hallcat]

The oposition is more ridiculous that you can imagine.  The other day a woman on the radio said "I don't want my country turned into some communist country like Russia."  What they fail to realize is that the US already has socialized medicine (Medicare, Medicaid & CHIP) and that we already have a socialized school system.  I don't know what they are afraid of.  We have to do something to keep Middle Class folks from going bankrupt because of an illness or injury.  The poor and elderly are taken care of with socialized medicine and all our children have the opportunity to receive a free primary education (free in the since that it's supported by property tax).  What it boils down to really is that no one wants to see their taxes increase.  Obama promises that no one with an income less than $250K will be effected by a tax increase.  That's fine with me.  We'll see what happens.

I wouldn't watch Fox New for anything but a good laugh.

[Wooster]

Aye, they're not the most reliable source of information are they?

The New Yorker did this article (not that I read the New Yorker...why the hell would I?    I just followed the link fro somewhere else)
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=1

It covers on aspect of the problem, but doesn't mention the high cost of drugs when compared to other places (like here) where the prices are capped.

[Hallcat]

I work for a TPA (Third Party Administrator).  We administer health plans for employers who are self insured.  They have a structure that allows them to pay their employee's medical costs through a fund they finance partly with employee paid premiums.  We have a lot of discussions about Obama's plan and what it will do to our business.  The only thing that will keep me employed is if the plan doesn't include single payer legislation.  So as much as I want government reform to our healthcare system depending on how it is structured I could be arguing myself out of a job.  We're on the cutting edge of a new way to pay privately for healthcare.  Here's an article about the company I work for and what we're doing to try to help employers save on healthcare costs.  Mind you hospitals are fighting us tooth and nail and so are the PPO (preferred provider organizations) networks.  So much so that we've had to slow down on some of the use of this program while we work out the legal issues.  But I think this is a sign of things to come.


San Antonio Company Lowers Healthcare Cost By Over 40%

Bill Miller Bar-B-Q goes back to basics to reduce healthcare costs


May 5, 2009 (San Antonio, TX) Bill Miller Bar-B-Q, a San Antonio-based restaurant chain, today announced that since it went “back to basics” with its health care plan on August 1, 2008, it has dropped related cost by more than 40%.

Based on an analysis of health care costs in relation to generally accepted financial arrangements within the health care provider community, Bill Miller Bar-B-Q terminated its PPO program and restructured its group health insurance program by partnering with area medical providers. Under its new program, medical care providers are reimbursed on a cost-plus basis.

“We start at cost and add a margin rather than rely on PPO networks and insurance companies who historically pay based on a phantom original bill which is then discounted,” began Barbara Newman, CFO for Bill Miller Bar-B-Q.  “Our method uses benchmarks to set parameters upon which medical claims are paid. We feel that this approach is much more in line with common sense, typical American business practices and our fiduciary duty.”

According to Insurance Consultant Bill Rusteberg, the new program makes sense for employers who are concerned about health care costs. “Under this program Bill Miller Bar-B-Q would have spent as much as 40% or more for the same benefits had they remained on a traditional PPO program. Managed care has morphed into a significant cost-driver instead of a cost-saver.”

Barbara Newman added, “With the savings realized under this innovative approach to health care, Bill Miller Bar-B-Q has improved benefits at no additional cost to our employees.  How many companies these days can offer better benefits at no additional cost to the employee or the company?”

The program is administered by Texas-based Group and Pension Administrators, Inc (GPA) which has offices in San Antonio, Dallas and Houston, Texas.  The company’s COO Kathy Enochs said,  “We share Bill Miller Bar-B-Q’s concern about rising health care costs and take steps every day to ensure our clients benefit from custom plans that are high quality yet cost friendly.  Going back to basics can be one way to ensure we meet those objectives.”

About Bill Miller Bar-B-Q
Bill Miller Bar-B-Q presently operates 69 restaurants in the San Antonio, Corpus Christi and Austin markets, primarily selling specially prepared barbecued meats. The restaurants have dining rooms and food-to-go service. Bill Miller Bar-B-Q owns all its own real estate and buildings and operates its own distribution center.  For more information, visit billmillerbbq.com.

About Group & Pension Administrators, Inc.
Group & Pension Administrators, Inc. (GPA) is the largest independently owned third-party administrator (TPA) in the Southwest, providing highest-quality and custom healthcare benefit management solutions to self-insured employers. For 40 years, GPA has combined its value of service excellence with a commitment to clients, employing industry-leading technology, tools and – above all – "high-touch" patient care to deliver the healthiest employees and the "healthiest" bottom line.

[Wooster]

I think quite a few people will be in the same position (and some of those will probably be out of pocket to the tune of millions).
But it's funny to see cost being mentioned so much where you could trawl through any NHS site and hardly see it mentioned..

http://www.show.scot.nhs.uk/introduction.aspx

When it was set up after the war, Consultants were dead set against it (they'd lose too much money they said) which led to Bevan's famous line "I stuffed their mouths with gold" when asked how he'd solved the problem.
(He let them keep their private patients and still work for the NHS)

[Wooster]

*edit*

I found them...they have their own site..
http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/index2.jsp?pContentID=1&p_applic=CCC&p_service=Content.show&

(Probably the most boring reading on the internet.. )

[Hallcat]

Our democracy isn't the same as yours, and we haven't had a world war fought on our own turf.  We've just been through the worst economic downturn in decades.  We'll be hard pressed to change healthcare as we know it.  The best I can hope for is some tax based employer subsidies to help way lay the costs of providing healthcare to the average American.  Some cost savings regulations would be well welcomed to make it illegal for hospitals to charge $4 for an aspirin.  I have many examples of the way the American system works well and many examples of how it works poorly.  But, in this day it should be inexcusable for a tax paying American to go without medical treatment only because they can't pay out of pocket for it.  And that does happen every day.

[Wooster]

I think between all of us (the developed nations), we'd have been able to come up with some kind of model that works well across the board by now. 

It's kind of ironic that it was a Post War US loan that gave us the cash to set up the NHS in the first place.

We were fucking skint..  Two World Wars had screwed us big time.. 



(It was a long running joke that we might have won, but flattening the German industrial machine had basically given them the chance to retool and upgrade their factories for a post war Europe...and Japan didn't do too badly out of it either.)

[Hallcat]

I can only speak for the US, and well I can't really speak for us either but here's my take on it.  To many chiefs and not enough Indians to allow anything at all to pass, let alone work well.  We'd probably have to find ourselves in a European post WWII situation to make any real change.  That's unfortunate, but there are too many entities out there making too much money to let it happen any other way.

[Wooster]

I think that's something to avoid.
Too may countries with too many really big sticks nowadays.

Another war on the scale of those two and healthcare would probably become a moot point, dead people generally only need an undertaker, not a Doctor.

[Hallcat]

I didn't mean that we should have another world war, I only meant that it would take devastation on that level to make the change that needs to be made.  Of course, I'd like it to be different than that.  It was only a hypothetical example of the trauma this country would need to experience in order to make true change.  If you could add up all of the horror stories of all the families effected by lack of healthcare and bombard Congress all at one time that might have the effect of a WW.  Just saying.  What we're gonna end up with is some compromise that will still leave millions uninsured and many more individuals and companies still paying way more than necessary.

[Wooster]

Or something like a flu pandemic?

[Thermalsig]

There are too many over here that feel entitled. Entitled to keep their money and fuck anyone else, until they back themselves into a corner with their poor products. We have millions of people that have the work ethic, we have just lost innovation. It does show you something though that so many big corporations have their hand out and are now having to grovel for someone to save their asses. I can't tell you how many people I hear are that pro business that are hugely pissed off by what we are giving theses big companies. We live in a huge Republican(conservative) state. Our governor almost refused and is still fighting the stimulus package Washington is trying to give him. The people that will suffer if he succeeds even partially is the unemployed. The people who for the most part drive this country's economy. With that kind of thinking, which is certainly not unique to this state, how are we going to get any meaningful health care reform? The Republicans say business will take care of it if we just allow them to be more profitable. In other words, tell the unions to bugger off, tell govt to stay out of our business, and don't mess with the markets. Unless of course, you want to subsidize our product to make us more competitive. Their are a lot of decent people who are willing to pay more, realizing the end benefit. It's the few with money, with their lobbies and commercials that mislead so many. There are a lot of people who are educated and try to fight this, but in the end, here as in all countries, the great unwashed masses who can't be arsed to find out the truth let them selves be led to the voting booth blind folded. This last election was a wake up call for most. I hope that Obama and his plan can work through this and bring us meaningful reform.

[Wooster]

Maybe the USA should be more concerned about that other C word, Corporatocracy. 

[keasy]

Maybe the USA should be more concerned about that other C word, Corporatocracy. 

The 'other' C word they should be more concerned about is ' CALIBRE'  mad mental gie any c*nt a gun that wants to put naked fore arms on their walls clause/right/bill/ amendment what ever it's called.

Guns don;t kill people indecipherable American constitute laws do.

Me awaits the backlash from Therm