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Galah
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« on: May 01, 2011, 03:37:08 AM »

GDay all - popping in to hear what the vibe is over the upcoming UK referendum on alternate voting.

I understand there's been some comparisons with Australia's voting system - a few not quiet true as well

The proposed UKs AV is closest to the state elections of NSW and Queensland where one doesn't have to number all the boxes - in every other state and territory and nationally, if you don't number every box sequentially, the vote is not counted which is not under consideration (personally, I think the NSW/Qld/UK-AV system is better than the Federal in having to number every box, but it's not too bad and can be sometimes easier to number backwards starting from the biggest knob - but I've never voted in a system where I could choose only 1. Rather my vote follows a path through progressive parties to finally "exhaust" (as they say) on Labor - so maybe not a big difference, especially in representative member seats, although the UK got a tad more reps (600 compared to our 150 with 1/3 of the population so it could make a few seats more interesting - dunno)

I follow this reporter's election blog who is over in the UK now banging on about AV (he's a nerd on voting and elections)
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2011/04/any-questions-on-how-avpreferential-voting-works-in-australia.html
http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2011/04/a-summary-of-the-misrepresentations-of-australias-voting-system.html

and a lovely youtube video smile
The Alternative Vote Explained


Is there a buzz on this or a big meh?
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 08:19:45 AM »

I've seen some of the No campaigns ads and they seem to make ridiculous statements or lie outright.  Haven't seen any of the Yes campaigns so they might be the same.

The referendum hasn't been getting much coverage here in NI as it is being held on the same day as both our Council and Assembly elections.  3 things for us to vote on in one go.  smile

Incidentally our Council and Assembly elections both use Proportional Representation which is somewhat more complex than AV.  Same sort of idea and you can vote for as many or as few candidates as you want but there are multiple seats available.  I live in East Belfast and we have 5 Assembly seats with 17 candidates going for them (from about 9 different parties)!   ohmy
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 08:56:39 AM »

We use three systems in Scotland already. (Not sure about Wales and NI, but they do use FPTP and MMPR)
The majority of MSP's are elected on the old First Past The Post system, and around a third (Additional Members) are elected using Mixed Member Proportional Representation.

The way MMPR works is there are eight Geographical Constituencies (Regions) to fight for, with seven seats in each, all the parties draw up a list of candidates in order of preference and they win seats based on the number of secondary votes they win within those Regions's.

This is where it gets a bit complicated: The amount of votes they get for each Region is divided by the number of seats they have won in the FPTP system, plus one and the winning party selects the top remaining member on their list to take a seat (if the top candidate has already won a seat in the FPTP votes it takes precedence and they select the next one down, and so on). The same process is used to select seven Additional Members for each Region, with each winning party having their divisor incremented by 1 as they win additional seats.
It means we can either split our votes because we like what another party has to say, but not enough to give them our first vote, or vote for the same party in both because we think the rest are balloons.

The third system is for the local Council Elections.
For that we use the Single Transferable Vote: (Using a quote here, CBA typing it up Wink)
To be elected a candidate must reach a set amount of votes known as the quota.

The votes are counted in stages. In the first stage only first preferences are counted. Anyone who reaches the quota is elected. Any votes received over the quota are not needed by the elected candidate and so are transferred to the second preference. If not enough candidates have then reached the quota, the candidate with the lowest number of votes is eliminated and all of their votes are passed to the next preference on the ballot papers.

This process is repeated until three or four candidates have been elected.


So come May 5th, people in Scotland will vote twice for the Scottish Parliament elections (one for Constituency, one for Regional), once for the Local Council (in order of preference (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc..)) and then once more on whether to accept the AV system for the UK elections.

...and the anti-AV brigade down south patronise people by saying AV alone is too complicated for the English to deal with?  laugh
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 08:59:19 AM by Wooster » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 09:22:49 AM »

The single transferable vote system sounds awfully familiar to the proposed alternative vote or is that just me ?

 Also that video is the firt thing I have seen thats for the AV yet I have had at least 3 leaflets through the door from the No to AV folk.
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 10:15:51 AM »

It has to be better than the shit we've had to put up with till now in the UK elections.
How many times have you heard people complain that it's a waste of time voting for 'X' because they have no chance of getting in?

What is being proposed is a bit watered down, but at least the vote will count for something.

There's also another consideration.
If we vote No because we believe that is a bit too watered down and would prefer something better (i.e. the Single Transferable Vote), then those against electoral reform will use the 'No' vote as evidence that people are against reform entirely.
If you vote Yes, then at least there's a possibility of having a chance to vote for or against further reform to the voting system at some point (including getting rid of AV again).
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 07:33:56 PM »

Look what Cricky found:

http://imgur.com/a/hgmbQ

 tongue2
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 08:06:58 PM »

It has to be better than the shit we've had to put up with till now in the UK elections.
How many times have you heard people complain that it's a waste of time voting for 'X' because they have no chance of getting in?


What is being proposed is a bit watered down, but at least the vote will count for something.

There's also another consideration.
If we vote No because we believe that is a bit too watered down and would prefer something better (i.e. the Single Transferable Vote), then those against electoral reform will use the 'No' vote as evidence that people are against reform entirely.
If you vote Yes, then at least there's a possibility of having a chance to vote for or against further reform to the voting system at some point (including getting rid of AV again).
True
But is it the right thing?  As noted on PC-F my experience has been bad therefore I extrapolate it will always be bad. Rightly or wrongly. Getting rid of something you've voted for is almost, almost mind, impossible. I voted to have an elected mayor in Doncaster. What a stupid, stupid choice that was and so far there's no sign of doing away with the position.

PR? Maybe. AV? No.
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2011, 08:14:32 PM »

PR might be even less palatable to the English populace than AV given the popularity of the BNP in some areas, but that's the price you pay for democracy.
(It might even encourage people to get out and actually vote to stop the bastards even getting a chance of getting an MP voted in  Wink)

Corroded pointed out that a better option there might be the STV.
You still run the risk, but I don't think to the same extent.

Fact remains, the current crop on anti's are running in fear of this going through and that's why they haven't stopped at just misleading people, they've resorted to bald faced lies.


I think my mind is made up on the Yes side now.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 08:16:42 PM by Wooster » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2011, 12:03:57 AM »

I want Single Transferable Vote over AV+

STV and AV+ sound similar but as usual the devil is in the details.
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 08:54:02 AM »

I want it because the Tories don't.    tongue2


Chris Hune and some top Tory on the politics show yesterday...

Tory - This is to complicated for people.

Hune - You are saying the British people are incapable of counting to three ?All of them including Scotland and Wales who have been doing similar for a while now.

Tory - erm,

Hune - (shouts him down). I find that incredibly patronising and disrespectful to the British electorate.


Keasy - aye, it is. My minds now made up.



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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2011, 07:21:55 PM »

Well I was going to vote for it but see as how he didn't mention us I'm not sure now.....    orly
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 07:25:18 PM »

He's English (Londoner), what did you expect?  Wink
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Cricky
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 08:07:24 PM »

Ah, in that case I'll let him off.  Surprised he got Scotland and Wales.  smile
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 08:46:53 PM »

Jebus, you lot are like children sometimes! I didn't get mentioned... waaaa!!!  innocent
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 09:03:11 PM »

You missed the sarcasm Chris. Wink
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