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Author Topic: Grandmother gets 3 years probation for file sharing  (Read 197 times)
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gi joe
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« on: June 03, 2011, 04:24:51 PM »

http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/file-sharing-grandmother-gets-3-years-probation-30734

How the fuck did that happen?  Were her lawyers shit and didn't understand the tech etc?  And if she got 3 years prob, why the fuck has David Laws still not be given 3 years probation.  What a load of bent fucking bollocks!
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keasy
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2011, 07:19:06 PM »

Any lawyer that tries this shit on....

"Muir was convicted despite the efforts of her defence team, which claimed that she had not used the network for any financial gain, but to build up her self-esteem after suffering from depression for a number of years"


... is a shit fuckin lawyer IMHO, they probably added a year to a two year probation period just for the sheer contempt of thinking the judge would fall for that shite.
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Kryten
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2011, 07:38:59 PM »

Hmmm.... Okay, to set the scene, I have a deep respect for the legal system - though not necessarily all the people who are involved in it or the nature of justice it always delivers! Above all, I've seen that by and large, the legal system works remarkably well given that by it's nature there is a winner and a looser in almost every case, and that losers are rarely happy about their fate at the hands of the system.

Underlying it all is the principle of presumption of innocence, which is still alive and well and (mostly) kicking. There are certainly courts that have tended to err on the side of hanging defendants and then asking questions, but the principle remains, that it is not up to a defendant to 'prove' he or she is innocent, but a prosecutor to 'prove' he or she is guilty.

Thus, if I am alleged to have 'stolen' music, for example, by downloading or copying something which carried a legitimate copyright for which I have not paid for a right of use, the burden of evidence is always on the prosecutor to prove the case against me beyond reasonable doubt. Likewise, if I am alleged to have illegally distributed 'stolen' music for which I have not paid for a distribution right, again the burden of evidence is always on the prosecutor to prove the case against me beyond reasonable doubt. It is not my burden to prove my innocence in any way. Thus if I cannot furnish a receipt to show I obtained something legally, I will still be found innocent unless the prosecution can provide evidence of a compelling nature to show that I am guilty and I cannot raise any issues of doubt. That is why the record and film industries are pressuring ISPs to provide client records to thus allow them to trace users who access sites and download and share music.

In civil actions, cases are decided on the principle of 'the balance of probabilities', where instead of the concept of proof and reasonable doubt, a court will decide on the basis of which side seems most likely to be right based on the arguments made and the evidence provided. Thusly the burden of evidence is rather different, and hence such things as civil actions for wrongful death often succeed where criminal actions for murder do not. It's also why many cases brought on alleged theft of copyright materials are filed in civil proceedings, because the copyright holder knows that the absence of a legitimate receipt for the item will tell far more against the defendant than in criminal proceeding where such a lack would be a matter of circumstance.

Even so, were I to be sued for copyright infringement, the fact I do not have a receipt to offer the court as evidence of legitimate access to the work would still not be damning in of itself because another principle of law comes into play - the question of 'reasonableness'. My argument in court would be that it is not reasonable to assume I never had a receipt simply because I can't produce one, because most people don't keep receipts. The court would be left to decide whether or not a notional 'normal' person would be likely to have kept a receipt for that item or not. There are many factors that might impact their decision on that point - a corporate entity for example is far more likely to keep financial records and maintain such things as software install disks and license materials than a private individual is to keep a receipt for a CD bought at Sainsbury's, Tesco's or whatever. Also, the period of time that has elapsed since the 'purchase', and the nature of the copyrighted item - such that it would be more reasonable to retain receipts for a £500 piece of software than a £10 audio CD or DVD.

I know that if I lost a civil case on the basis of the lack of a receipt and without the balance of probability tipped by the evidence in favour of the complainant against me, I would certainly have high expectations of the judgement being overturned in appeal.

The entertainment industry know this of course, but they also know that private individuals most often can't afford good lawyers and don't want to be involved in court cases in the first place so they settle and run away as fast as they can. That is why so many actions by, or on behalf of, the industry have succeeded and why very few have been challenged or adverse judgments appealed. One day they'll go after someone who is prepared to fight and we'll likely see some interesting consequences!

In the case that you linked to, it appears that Helen Muir's lawyers did not argue that she was innocent. Rather, they argued that her actions were the result of depression. As a result of her lawyers arguments on her behalf, she escaped custodial sentence and will receive psychiatric counselling.

Now, how did David Laws escape a custodial sentence? For that matter, how the hell did Margaret Moran escape prosecution? It's a different debate and one that has left me scratching my head with a look of total confusion. smile

OK, so now I've bored everyone silly, I'll go back to sleep mode.... until my next whiskey break!

Kryten
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:42:14 PM by Kryten » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2011, 09:44:38 PM »

Who's David Laws?  tongue2


I heard this story on the radio earlier in the week and I'm sure they said the court took that she suffered from OCD into consideration.
Hence the slap on the wrist. Quite a big slap on the wrist but far better than the hefty fine the prosecution were probably rubbing their hands in hopeful anticipation for.  scratchhead

(Oh, and she never plead any innocence, so the only thing her lawyer can do in that situation is to try and reduce the punishment)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 09:47:52 PM by Wooster » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 12:32:14 AM »

Receipt or not...it's not within intellectual property rights to  redistribute said righted materials without the lawful  holders permission.

Kinda makes it all a moot point IMHO.


That's why I prefer Usenet, I'm not re/distributing material. and that is where any defence of a p2p system falls flat on its arse.


I'm no sycophant that shouts the case for the greedy entertainment industry but a spade is a fucking spade, so prolific file sharing is simply flagging yourself up for trouble.


Such as I just ironically did with my admittance of being a Usenet user...or did I ?

 laugh


BTW don't anyone give me the pish about usenet being a legit provider of newsgroups....no fecking entrainment industry led legal action is going to go after legit or even dubious usenet usage pattern for something as less obvious as copyrighted intellectual property unauthorised redistribution.

Come out with that pishflaps and you've lost it right there!

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Kryten
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2011, 08:14:59 AM »

I seem to recall that (as of this moment in time) it's legal in Canada to download and use unpaid for music using P2P software. It's illegal in Canada to place copyrighted music on P2P networks, but it's NOT illegal to download it. To the best of my knowledge, it's illegal everywhere else (at least those countries that have applicable copyright laws) both to provide and to download.

In spite of the moral questions, the reality is that this sort of thing happens. Mainly it is by young people but that's a generalisation. As soon as any safeguards are put in, you can bet your bottom dollar that some very talented and clever young "geek" will develop a hack to get around them.

As a young lad, I will admit that I made recordings from vinyl records to cassettes so that I can play them in my car. I borrowed cassettes and vinyl records from mates in order to make copies on cassette and I also lent records and cassettes to my mates in order for them to do the same. That was copying music and sharing it for free then, as it is now. Just the methods and numbers are different. I dare anyone of my generation and older to state that they have never done so.

This is such a big deal now is only because of the sheer volume of music that can be copied and shared in the digital age. That does make it a big deal; how could it not be? But we need to understand that it's something we've always done, just to a lesser degree in the past.

I very strongly subscribe to the view that, although there are a minority of artists who have expressed their views against illegal downloading of their work, it is really the Music industry behemoths (the big companies) who are against this. The industry is changing at a high rate of knots and these aged executives are dragging and kicking and screaming against that change because it's not the artist that loses out; it's them.
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2011, 10:21:53 AM »

That's it in a nutshell.

Widespread access to the internet has caught a lot of the big corporations out.
Take Sony who sold the PS3 at a $2Bn loss in order to ensure Blu-Ray won the latest format war. They didn't bank on so many people bypassing the hardware and just downloading the movies instead.
It's rumoured they might never make that money back from their commission on hardware and disc sales now.
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 04:10:12 PM »

Sort of hilarious as I remember a few years ago DVD will probably be the last properly dominant format, as downloading will take over.

Exactly the same as music went digital, it was only a matter of time before movies did.
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 09:18:12 PM »

The Kaiser Chiefs are releasing 20 tracks & encouraging people to make an album of 10 tracks that others can buy - My heads beginning to spin.
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