Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: I don't think the Lonely Planet publishers ever envisioned this...  (Read 336 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« on: October 28, 2007, 01:11:12 PM »

There's a documentary on tonight about the lack of a credible long term plan for Iraq after we invaded called 'No Plan, No Peace - The Inside Story of Iraq's Descent into Chaos'
http://www.a2mediagroup.com/?c=175&a=19211

In the trailers for the first programme the hook was this gem of information..
Quote
One former American Ambassador, who became the Mayor of Baghdad, says: "We were really using a Lonely Planet guide book from some time in the early Nineties. It's a great guide book but it shouldn't be the basis of an occupation."

It beggars belief doesn't it?   Huh? laugh

What the fuck is the point of paying our 'Intelligence' Services when they just pop down to the local WHSmith and pick up a tourist guide book?  razz
Logged

Centurion
Commander
Drinking problem
*****

Good Guy/Gal Points. 112
Offline Offline

Posts: 4448



« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2007, 02:52:47 PM »

Have you noticed how the Americans have troops and the British have soldiers....Huh?Huh?
Logged

"Diplomacy without arms is like music without instruments", so let's build up the orchestra!

Frederick the Great
Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 03:29:52 PM »

 Huh?

Maybe it's because there's a lot more of them.. Wink
Logged

Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 11:31:07 PM »

Fuck, that was depressing. Sad

It's like someone dragging you by the hair up to a kid you've just run over and killed because you'd taken your eyes off the road and showing you what you just did..
Despite all the warnings that there was no planning for after the invasion, that arsehole Blair still took us into it. I suspected it was bad but I didn't realise it was that bad..we should have never gotten involved.

I tell you, I've been a lifelong supporter of Labour but they are finished, that was just the final nail in their coffin. And if that is the result of the best that they have to offer me as a Briton, I'd sooner just break up the Union and become a Scot first and last.
Logged

Vasco
Master & Commander
Drinking problem
*****

Good Guy/Gal Points. 146
Offline Offline

Posts: 4079



« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 12:49:49 AM »

History is full of this SH*T.

I have just finished reading a book called "In Flanders Field".  It is the Frist Workd War Diary of Corporal Monty Ingram a New Zealander who fought in the War from his joning up in 1916 all the way through to his demobilization in 1919.  He tells the story of the Battle of Paschendale from first hand experience and it is written by him the day after the battle when it was all very fresh in his mind.

"More than any other battle, Passchendaele has come to symbolise the horrific nature of the great battles of the First World War and the uselessness of the tactics employed. The Germans lost approximately 260,000 men, while the British Empire forces lost about 300,000, including approximately 36,500 Australians, 3,596 New Zealanders and 16,000 Canadians — the latter of which were lost in the intense final assault between 26 October and 10 November; 90,000 British, New Zealand and Australian bodies were never identified, and 42,000 never recovered. Aerial photography showed 1,000,000 shell holes in 1 square mile (2.56 km²)."

Many of those troops drowned in mud or were cut down by enemy machine guns as they struggled through the mud or mud filled shell holes because this battle was fought in a swamp below sea level.

Why did the British Forces fight such a deseperate battle in such a terrible and disadvantageous place.  The answer is simple - because the bloody politicians said they had to for political reasons.

Logged

It is a scientific fact that men who lose their hair have more testosterone.  Testosterone is sexy!   biggrin
Nivlac
Lager shandy
*****

Good Guy/Gal Points. 103
Offline Offline

Posts: 1485


Fine, have it your way


« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 02:56:31 AM »

Remember when a nations leaders were actually part of the battle? I don't think any world leader would be found on the battle field today.
Logged

We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake. -- Catherine Fahringer
Hallcat
Mistress of Kittens
Pub regular
*****

Good Guy/Gal Points. 147
Offline Offline

Posts: 3309


Dog days of summer have arrived.


« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 03:36:03 AM »

Remember when a nations leaders were actually part of the battle? I don't think any world leader would be found on the battle field today.

That'd be interesting.  Can you imagine Hillary, the new Private Jane, ewwww. W would be dead before the battle. lol
Logged

"What I Loved" -John Green
Hyperconnectedness & our ease of movement, that trains & planes & Skype make us all so close to each other...& my fear? I hope that 500 years from now, there will be castles that we made for each other and that there will still be people & music & stories to populate them
Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 08:59:40 AM »

I watched the second half of it last night and we've left Basra in a hell of a state.
We encouraged people to come out of the woodwork and take a stand for civil liberties. human rights etc. and now they are being treated like dogs under sharia law.
We only have about 30,000 deployable troops at any one time, that's it! So we don't have enough bodies on the ground to do the job in Iraq and Afghanistan and, as one British Commander said "We are just the most well armed tribe down here".

Another couple of eye openers to come out of last nights program:
A few weeks into the invasion a British expert was given the task of getting the electricity back on. The entire plan consisted of half a page of paper with a list of six power stations on it and a figure next to each, that was the whole plan (so much copper was looted from the power lines in the immediate aftermath of the invasion that copper prices dropped on the world markets).
The other was the financial system to be put in place, as one diplomat read down the page he read that the only currencies that were to be allowed were the US Dollar, which he thought was fair enough, but where he expected to see the Riyadh as the other currency he was shocked to see that it was in fact the German Reichsmark ( blink), then he realised that someone had just copied and pasted full paragraphs from the post WW2 plan for rebuilding Germany.. Huh?

What was clear was that anyone who tried to point out these glaring flaws in planning to the US administration before, during and after* the invasion were either cut out of the loop (like Tony 'Lame Poodle' Blair) or actively began to distance themselves (like Colin Powell).

It also made me look at the current US surge in a different light.
The country is pretty much fucked as it is, so they have nothing to lose by giving it a go, the alternative would most likely result in the country going to the dogs and being handed to Iran (and anyone else up for taking a slice) on a plate.

*Rumsfeld's 'Office of Special Plans' (or Fantasy Factory as it was often known) which came up with most of the post invasion plans was headed up by Douglas Feith, a man Gen. Tommy Franks called "The dumbest motherfucker on the face of the earth!", when you consider that this is the team that most likely came up with the plan for getting the power back on, supplied the Lonely Planet guide book to the US Ambassadors and did the copy/paste job from the 1945 plan, it isn't hard to believe that the man was spot on in his observations.   blush
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 09:03:53 AM by Wooster » Logged

Vasco
Master & Commander
Drinking problem
*****

Good Guy/Gal Points. 146
Offline Offline

Posts: 4079



« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 12:13:05 AM »

This has all the hallmarks of last minute panic planning.

I honestly believe that they thought they could walk in and oust Sadam and the massing throngs would cheer and celebrate then have elections and all would be peace and harmony.  I think they underestimated the fact that there are three types Islam and that they hate each other and will fight amongst themselves until eternity. 

Instead of being in a nice happy place after Sadam went they were in the middle of a guerilla and terrorist war,  WOrse they were in this war with no preparation and no plan.

PANIC PANIC  flee flee flee
Logged

It is a scientific fact that men who lose their hair have more testosterone.  Testosterone is sexy!   biggrin
Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2007, 01:09:42 AM »

That was the overriding feeling most experts seemed to have (both inside and outside the Whitehouse).

It looked like the US administration wanted to convince themselves (and everyone else) that the Iraqi people would welcome them with open arms once Saddam was gone and that no post war planning was needed since the Iraqi's would take care of themselves.
Anyone who tried to tell them different was marginalised (this is what happened to Tony Blair).

Within days of the 'end', the country was crippled by the complete lack of any sort of control of major facilities and resources (Gen. Franks warned that we'd need a lot more troops on the ground in the immediate aftermath to police the country, but his views were ignored) and the panic at the lack of control got so bad at one point, that some senior idiots in the Bush team seriously suggested that they bring in Serbian troops to make up the numbers....the fact that these troops had until recently been waging a genocidal war against Muslims in the Balkans didn't seem to make any difference to them at all.
Logged

Nivlac
Lager shandy
*****

Good Guy/Gal Points. 103
Offline Offline

Posts: 1485


Fine, have it your way


« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2007, 01:56:10 AM »

the fact that these troops had until recently been waging a genocidal war against Muslims in the Balkans didn't seem to make any difference to them at all.

I don't know why but that made me LOL for real.....quick send in the foxes to guard the hen house.
Logged

We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake. -- Catherine Fahringer
Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 02:08:29 AM »

 Cool

The US ambassador who reported that seemed to think that it hadn't even occurred to the administration at all, talk about out of touch! Wink
I get the feeling that Bush and Co regard the whole running the country and international relations thing as a part time job or some sort joke and that they can do wtf they like and never be taken to task for it.  confused
Logged

Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2007, 07:11:10 PM »

I must be a glutton for punishment..

I'm watching No End In Sight atm which goes into a lot more detail on some of the issues already covered and a lot more.
I.E.
The (imho) 'criminal' decision by a very select few people behind closed doors, with no real experience (but a lot of power and influence), to 'De Ba'ath' Iraqi society. Most doctors, teachers, government officials were Ba'ath party members just to do their jobs and were instantly classed as permanently unemployable in any similar role.
And the colossally stupid and (imho) criminal decision by the same few people to disband the Iraqi army. (Much to the horror of the US commanders on the ground and security advisors at home who were never consulted)
At a stroke, 5 million mostly armed and trained military personnel were out of jobs with no means of supporting their families (many of them were the same people who had been standing by ready to assume the role of military police).
Hardly a surprise then that heavily armed militias sprung up all over the place almost overnight and started taking care of their own security and 'employment'.


It's becoming increasingly clear that the whole fuck up rests on probably no more than a dozen shoulders.
This clique had far more power than sense, and the people who did have sense were marginalised and rendered powerless to stop them.

(I promise..this'll be my last Iraq documentary I'll watch for months.. Wink)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 07:14:38 PM by Wooster » Logged

Galah
Drinking formula.
**

Good Guy/Gal Points. 29
Offline Offline

Posts: 126



« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2007, 09:54:32 PM »

(I promise..this'll be my last Iraq documentary I'll watch for months.. Wink)

hehe - but I do like reading your critique of these. I haven't commented as I's struck speechless at the stupidity of it all

(oh, and the Aussies are just as compromised as the US/Brits on this with our Bush-wannabe government - who I'm happy to report should be getting the arse in 3 weeks time  yay  -- our opposition has said that they will begin a phased withdrawal from Iraq over 6 months. I know we made the mess and we should clean up, but I think that us being there is not helping, and possibly hindering a process that Iraq (or whatever emerges, upto 3 new states) needs to get through -- in addition to the fact that at every point possible we've made the worst possible decision, a trend that shows no sign of abating, so we may as well get us and our clusterfucks of policy makers out of there )
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 09:57:36 PM by Galah » Logged
Wooster
Wall Eyed Wanker
Administrator
Alcoholic
*

Good Guy/Gal Points. -518
Offline Offline

Posts: 5550


'An how faust kin it ging?'


« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2007, 03:10:08 PM »

I'm not too happy about us having to pull out of Basra when it's still pretty broken tbh but I was genuinely surprised to find out how many troops we have available.

We only have 100,000 troops in total of which we can deploy a maximum of 30,000 for very brief periods, that's for all our operations.
We have about 7000 in Iraq and 10,000 in Afghanistan and for long term deployments that's us at about our sustainable limit.  confused

To put that into perspective, Turkey has just deployed 100,000 troops along its Iraqi border as a result of the PKK problem and the USA has about 160,000 in Iraq itself.
Logged

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: