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[keasy]

So...we are going to have the referendum in 2014.
No surprise there, even if the conservatives hadn't tried to force the issue it was well known they would do it in 2014. Why ?
Becasue it is the  700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn. TBH I find that kind of tactic pathetic and extremely patronising...sure Alex, we will vote for your independant Scotland becasue of the waves of nationalism Bannockburn spurs in people.
Now it transpires they will release the blue print to the referendum on....Burns Night!

FFS you couldn't write that shit!   

That kind of thing may be right up some peoples street but ain't mines.i
I was undecided in my vote until Salmond gave agreat speech in the Scottish Parliament yesterday....I started thinking he was soing well even if he does have the worst deputy in the world...Nicohla Fucking Sturgeon (what is it with tyhe fish theme ?).

[Wooster]

I'm waiting for all the bickering and rhetoric to die down a bit.

They did say in their manifesto that it would be in the second half of the term.
This year we have the local elections, 2015 is the General Election and 2016 is the next Scottish Parliamentary Elections which leaves 2013 or 2014 where there won't be election campaigns running.
2013 isn't the second half of the term, which leaves 2014.
It also gives us the maximum amount of time to sort out the proposals.

My current thinking is that MP's are probably worried about their cushy jobs for a start, and by trying to force the issue into a simple Yes/No as soon as possible, they must be really worried about Devo Max.


It also really fucking annoyed me yesterday when a BBC reporter said that we were only looking at Devo Max in order to 'cling' onto the British Army.
...there's a telling statement about attitudes right there.  

There's also the contempt of Cameron in his announcement.
He leaked it to two very pro-English newspapers before he announced it himself, and he didn't even have the decency to come up to Edinburgh to do so..the shitbag.

[keasy]

They did say in their manifesto that it would be in the second half of the term.

Apparently they didn't.

It wasn't on the manifesto at all according to every radio show I've listened too recently and Nicola (fucking) Sturgeon was well against the ropes when pressed about noit mentioning it until 4 days before the lection.
Her usual rotweiller self kicked in...blah blah blah can't stand her etc.

Don't see why Cameron would come up to Edinburgh to announce either tbh, it's an offer of legal ironing out. Salmond seems quite happy with it now in N Ireland.

Anyhoo...Banockburn...Burns...Haggis...Wee Piper Dolls in Tartan Tubes...Shortbread..pmsfl....I'm sure gonna vote yes because all that really makes me a patriot 

[corroded]

If Scotland votes for independence, there is absolutely no way Britain should own the Royal Bank of Scotland, and should bail out all British interest to become Scottish owned. Scotland should also take a share of the national debt. I have not yet heard one MP mention that. It would be fair if it was at the percentage of the populace of Scotland in Britain... since I believe this debt is £4.7 trillion, £470 billion would be fair. If all countries leave the Union I don't want England paying for Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish debt too.

I don't really care if Scotland has independence or not to be honest, but if they do they should not be able to use it as a debt wiping system.

i was watching Question Time last night, the other Scottish guy grilled (hoho) Sturgeon over one of her MPs calling all other parties as 'anti Scottish'.

Frankly, if the UK breaks up that said... I don't ever see the EU developing into what America has become. We are basially the template for European integration.

[Wooster]

That's an idiotic statement. The fact that we'd take on our share of the national debt (and any other burdens) is a given.  

And what part of RBS? Just the 700 Scottish branches or are you including the 1600 branches of NatWest (and it's 33,000 employees) and those of Ulsterbank in there as well?
(And that's not including all their overseas assets, investment companies and the Churchill and Direct Line Insurance companies)
Those RBS being regarded as 100% Scottish sentiments are just more of the usual commentariat claptrap. (making it Idiotic statement #2)

-edit- And, no, I haven't made my mind up yet. I'm waiting until all the cards are on the table (and trying to cut through the inevitable bullshit that's being spouted) before I make a decision.  

[corroded]

I don't see it as a given, politicans are devious and incompetant.

84% of RBS is owned by the British Government. The RBS that owns all those assets. It is still a Scottish company. Lloyds own HBOS wholley, same for Natwest with RBS, they should be owned by their parents. I'm not saying each other cannot own companies from another country. I don't think the British should bail out a Scottish company after independence, it should be transfered to Scotland. I should not be paying tax to pay for that bailout.

Try to be a little less condesending next time, eh? Neither are idiotic statements. I suppose they might seem so if you didn't know RBS was 84% government owned, I guess.

[Wooster]

I know RBS is 84% owned by the Government (I'd have had to have been in a coma for the past few years not to know that) and it's wasn't condescending, it still is an idiotic statement, or at the very least, a misinformed one.

Given that RBS is also part of the financial burden currently held by the UK Government, then Scotland would take on it's fair share of it as well.
Off the top of my head, you could say that since it was taxpayers money, of which Scotland makes up 10% (for talkings sake) that bailed it out, then Scotland would take on 8.4% of it and incur any future losses on the stake from then on.


What annoyed me is that there's always been a pervasive attitude that the Scots are just out to bleed the English dry and the RBS comment is a prime example that I've heard echoed all over the place.
RBS is a UK bank, not a Scottish bank.
You yourself have mentioned many times about how much money The City contributes to the UK coffers.
RBS was a major part of that revenue stream for long enough, but did we ever mention that 'because it's a 'Scottish' bank' that revenue should flow north of the border?
We didn't, did we?

So who's out to bleed who dry here if the sentiment is that we should take the 84% on by ourselves, now that the Golden Goose has stopped laying eggs?


This is one of the reasons why we need as much time as possible to work this kind of stuff out.
It's already been well under way in Scotland, but what we've seen over the last week is a UK Government acting as if it has just woken out of a coma, flew into a panic, and decided that their only (or easiest) option is to try to panic everyone else as well.

And that's why I'm waiting until the rhetoric dies down and they start acting sensibly again.
i.e. Publishing the economic figures they've either been too scared to show (Google for the McCrone Report that was buried in 1974), or too scared to work out.

That's all I want, not politicisms, just the facts.

[corroded]

I wonder how UK it would be if it were still successful...

If Scotland is part of the UK it obviously has no right to state it gets the specific funds. That's just the part of being the UK. The government decides where that cash goes. This is to do with the split, which is a very different thing. If it's a UK bank and Scotland leaves the UK, it should no longer be a UK bank.

For the record, I'll be the judge of who I personally find condescending. You may not agree with my points, but they are not idiotic.

[Wooster]

If Scotland is part of the UK it obviously has no right to state it gets the specific funds.

But you feel that the rest of the UK has the right to state that it takes all the losses?

[keasy]

You can't just suddenly throw RBS at us as a Scottish only bank because we leave the UK. As already said, it was one of biggest London City contributors.

If Scotland does break away I want 10% of all profits from Virgin Bank because Scotland paid into the bail out of Northern rock. Is that the logic we're really lowering too ?
It's not an idiotic statement you made Chris but it's a poor judgement of a nations people to assume we would fuck off and burden another land with our fair share of a debt. We're a proud people too proud to even have such a thought enter our minds.

If Scotland splits RBS would still be a bigger player down south than up here. It doesn't matter a shit what country it's hypothetically  going to be based in, the debt was amassed as a UK bank and will be shared equally if we separate.

On that note BTW if we do go it alone, you lot down there better not think you can clandestinely sneak over our border in the dark of night to fill your petrol tanks up on our cheap lower duty petrol  

[Hap Hazzard]

Camerons a complete knob. Businesses will invest in Scotland, as their people are not a nation of cut throat back stabbers like down here and i've lived both sides of the wall. All Englands done for Scotland is systematically rape it for centuries. It's no wonder that their people want to breakaway from english governance.

[keasy]

Oh BTW.

Before Scotland either breaks away or stays within the UK RBS will have been practically given away to a private bank/investors anyway...same as Northern rock.
It's debts will be wiped, by the UK government looong before any of this happens.

[Wooster]

Or written off at a huge loss to the taxpayer.
Chances are that'll happen as soon as MP's get wind of a change in its fortunes, cashing in our shares and investing in their own while they're still cheap (no doubt accompanied by consolatory words from various City Experts telling us the it's 'the best deal available' and a 'wise decision by the Government').

Well they would say that, wouldn't they?
 Since they stand to make a few bucks out of it as well.

[Wooster]

I'll say one thing for Alex Salmond & Co.

They seem to be the only ones out there chasing down jobs and investments for Scotland (he's out in the UAE at the moment), so you cant say he isn't making an effort (unlike some).
On the other hand, you just need to look at the allocation of contracts for the Olympics,
Scottish firms bid for over 2000 contracts and they won just 17, a pathetic 2% of the total £5Bn budget.

...and there was me thinking that the taxpayer was picking up the majority of the bill.

[Centurion]

All bickering aside I think it will be a sad day if we were to split as we are a lot stronger together 

On that note BTW if we do go it alone, you lot down there better not think you can clandestinely sneak over our border in the dark of night to fill your petrol tanks up on our cheap lower duty petrol  


Like you do with are women