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[Vasco]

One of my second cousins was one of the 26 killed in the bombings in Birmingham hence my atagonistic feelings about the IRA but I do not hate all Catholics because of it.  The Catholics have killed hundreds of thousands over the centuries in the name of their religion, look at the inquisition for a start.  The protestants aren't innocent here either.  In fact organised religion has a history of violence.

Therefore should we blame all Moslems because of what some extremist moslems do.  Islam is not supposed to be a violent religion nor does it promote violence any more than Christianity does (eye for an eye etc).  Remember the Bible is an Islamic holy book alongside the Koran and Jesus is an Islamic prophet.  The problem as with all religions is that it is shaped and determined by its leaders. There are some Moslems who have power and are in positions of influence that promote violence.  We could ask why don't the peaceful masses rise up and stop them but then why didn't the peaceful masses in Europe rise up and stop the Inquisition?  Fear and being under a feudal system is the main reason and the middle east pretty much mirrors that now.

I guess what I am saying is that I do not consider the Islamic family that lives down the street from me to be so evil and nasty that I should hate them and want to kill them because they are Islamic.  They are a hardworking peaceful family who detest what is happening in the name of their religion as much as we do.  So I reiterate Islam and the moslems are not the problem it is the rulers and leaders of the middle east that are the enemy and I agree we should be looking at taking them out.  The problem I suspect is identifying and finding them amongst the masses.

I might be so bold and controvercial as to say that Islam is not the problem but reigion is.  History is full of religious war and conflict and in all of these it has been the leaders of the religions that are the instigators and their motivations are purely greed and power.  The islamic terrorism is no different.

[AbaddonsFury]

Yeah I remember all the peaceful muslims, having a peaceful protest, when someone did the heinous crime of putting up a cartoon of allah..

[Vasco]

What I am trying to say is that I don't think it is the religion or necessarily the country but the people themselves that are violent.  I saw the mass graves in Cambodia a peaceful budhist country, the Khmer Rouge Brigadier I used to meet in the jungle wore a Budha necklace.  It was all about a hatred of the Vietnamese who centuries before were Khmer just like them.  Hell I had trouble telling them apart yet they hated each other so much they killed each other and planted bombs etc.  Sometimes when you spoke to them they had no idea why they were doing it any more they just new that there was the hated enemy so lets kill them.

AF you deplore the violence these people do as do I but where we differ is on what the root cause of it is.  I don't beleive it is as simple as saying its Islam, I think it is basic human nature at its worst and that Islam etc is just the excuse. In other words take away the Islam and they will still conduct Terrorism because they hate westerners and they wouldn't even know why. 

The Allah Cartoon protest is an example, that was more about protesting against the West than it was about defending the faith. It gave them an excuse for violence.

[Wooster]

They do love a good whinge, don't they? 

[Ed]

well, its not religion itself that caused the problems, its how people use religion that cause the problems.
Both Islam and christianity teach love and understanding,
christians used the bible as an excuse to slaughter muslims for the last thousand years and also persecute thier own people.
Muslims use the Koran to control and incite people to violence
basically religion is a tool; a means of control for greedy people to have power and money. abit simplistic? maybe not.
what do the middle east have, they have good opium and plenty of oil, that makes people rich, saddam was rich.
so here the scene, a muslim says to his friend they have insulted allah blah blah rhetoric, we must have revenge.....if you strap a bomb to yourself and blow up 100 christians you will have 100 virgins waiting for you in heaven. i mean who is gonna believe that shiit!! well evidently lots of muslims do and Allah is shaking his head and might even cry...he looks across at jesus and says sorry big man i did not intend it to work out like this, jesus smiles and says well i am sure my religion has taught my people the tolerance and love to deal with it, but he looks doubtful.

so we need oil and drugs in the west and we will do anything to to maintain the supply of those. fuck knows what the muslims want...all they seem to do is kill each other which is sad, at the end of the day the west has no concilliation with the muslim extremists and therefore the situation will continue, war was the easy option so now everyone should be looking at alternatives like embago and dialogue.
middle east is about 100 years from democracy if it can ever support that kind of government, and we have only fuelled hatred of each other over the last 10 years or so.

[Wooster]

I'm an atheist myself and fundamentalists of any religion really hate atheists. 
If your whole power base relies on an illusion, the last thing you want to have around is someone who can see the emperor has no clothes on.

[AbaddonsFury]

I'm an atheist myself and fundamentalists of any religion really hate atheists. 
If your whole power base relies on an illusion, the last thing you want to have around is someone who can see the emperor has no clothes on.

Unless the emperor happens to be a spunky chick, then we want you to tell us what you see... 

[Vasco]

Unless the emperor happens to be a spunky chick, then we want you to tell us what you see... 

There are times AF when you say it all and leave me nothing to argue against.  This is one of those times.   

[AbaddonsFury]